Canine Autoimmune Hemolytic Anemia (AIHA & IMHA) - Immunizations

We had such a learning experience, I just have to share. Although I don't know if it was the immunizations that caused Kahlu's AIHA, you can imagine how nervous I was when the time came to give Enzo his booster shot. There was a Distemper death in our area and Parvo is around too, so not immunizing was not an option for me. I asked for the shots to be given separate, the vet said they can't get them. Really??? So I phoned a holistic vet 50km away and the super friendly person at the other end suggested separate immunizations or a titer. I should have thought of that myself.... So back i go to my regular vet, turkey neck in hand to draw blood from little Enzo's jugular. I highly recommend this tactic, he was happy as a clam! The result, adequate for distemper, not for Parvo. So we do the Parvo shot tomorrow. And yes, all of a sudden my vet CAN get the separate immunizations. When we just say what we want, eventually they will agree. We are all still learning, right? Best wishes, Brigitte & the poodle boys

Brigitte BC Canada

LOL....isn't that always the way it works Brigitte!!! How's Enzo been making out? Behaving himself or keeping you on your toes? I've got several very interesting articles on my other computer saved that I'll post here when I get it fixed. Vaccine related. My power supply died on me so I'm on a crappy laptop for now!! :(

Johnny

Johnny, I would be very interested in those articles. Mind you I probably read everything available and also got input from Dr. Dodds. But we can never have too much information, the hard part is to make the right decision. Enzo has been doing great. Him and Ripley get along great. He has a lot of drive and energy and certainly keeps me on my toes! Today he did a normal puppy tumble, I freaked out and had to go check his gums....I guess it never really goes away completely. Brigitte

Brigitte BC Canada

Hurray for you, Brigitte! Enzo has a great Mom! Henri's IMHA was definately caused by vaccines. It is amazing what I have learned about vaccines in the past year. When you know better, you do better---that is definately true for me. Bella (our other Westie) is due for her rabies booster and I plan to have a titer run first. If we had never been on the IMHA journey with Henri, I would have never know to do this. Furhugs, Ella Henri, West Highland White Terrier, 18-months, diagnosed with vaccine-induced IMHA on 02/26/09, Meds: 2.5mg/EOD Azathioprine and Benedryl PRN.

Ella Seattle

Wow, you are so lucky! I am still searching for a Vet that will give them separately. In my case it looks like I will have to order them myself, and bring it to my Vet. They like to tell you that they don't come separately but they do. I find it hard to believe that others don't also request this... but what do I know LOL. Will probably just do titers on Layla...and I have decided I am in no big hurry.

Julie IL

Isn't it funny how they couldn't get separate vaccines and now they can? I wish more people were educated on the dangers and then perhaps we would finally see a change. I have no problem paying extra to do it separately so maybe the Vets would see that is a plus for their income. I am not saying all Vets put money making in the forefront but I am sure it factors in. I just wish they would understand that they could build a bigger customer base if they would be open to owners wishes.

Penny Lytle Creek Calif

What is/are titers?

Jessi BC

Jessi, a titer is a blood test that shows if the dog has antibodies for a certain virus (parvo, distemper, rabies) at the time of the test. The test is not cheap, i payed $170 including the blood draw and shipping. I think in the long run it is worth it, because you only immunize for the virus the dog has no immunity and when the dog really needs it. I am still learning about the whole thing, the learning never ends. Best wishes, Brigitte & the poodle boys

Brigitte BC Canada

i will be doing the titer tests for charlie as well! he will be going in for a check in a couple weeks! he has been med free now for 6 months!! He is doing great, we went to the beach last week and he was so happy, i got a picture of him actually levitating as he ran down the beach... its on f b check it out take care carol

Carol vanc wa

Hi Brigitte I was very interested to hear how you are going with Enzo, and also vaccinations. I gathered up enough courage to take Bonnie, my border collie, Riley's friend to the vet to ask a whole heap of questions that have been bothering me - immunisations of course. We discussed all that had happened and how I feel about going forward and I have to say the vet was excellent. There is a lot of parvo around at the moment, so we settled on that, much like you, and it gives cover for pet insurance as well. She checked Bonnie for fleas and said she was clean - not to walk her in any areas where there was stagnant water and mosquitos. It was a reassuring visit - I did not realise how much I was feeling so protective of Bonnie. Silka

Silka Melbourne Australia

Your vet is being LAZY. We had our Emmy get a "gang" shot in 2003 and lost her six weeks later. We now insist that all shots be given separately and SEVERAL weeks apart. This gives the immune system time to get in balance. We even doo this for nasal vaccines. Get a new vet. It is your dog and I can't suggest strongly enough that you do the shots this way!!! Our current vet is in complete agreement with our protocol and is very supportive of this method. Extra trips to the vet are worth the time.

Jack New Hampshire

Jack, it is all good, I don't need to get an other vet! She is doing exactly what I want, titers and then have the immunizations separate if needed. Thanks to my 'nagging' the separate inoculations are now available at this vet for anybody. We ALL never stop with the learning! :-) Brigitte & the poodle boys

Brigitte BC Canada

Good reads....ENJOY..... Permission granted by Dr. W. Jean Dodds to post and repost this article. ALL ABOUT VACCINE ISSUES & VACCINATIONS* W. Jean Dodds, DVM 1 and Ronald D. Schultz, PhD 2 There is little doubt that application of modern vaccine technology has permitted us to protect companion animals effectively against serious infectious diseases. Today, we can question conventional vaccine regimens and adopt effective and safe alternatives primarily because the risk of disease has been significantly reduced by the widespread use of vaccination programs, which convey underlying population or herd immunity. For many veterinary practitioners canine vaccination programs have been ¡°practice management tools¡± rather than medical procedures. Thus, it is not surprising that attempts to change the vaccines and vaccination programs based on scientific information have created significant controversy. A ¡°more is better¡± philosophy still prevails with regard to pet vaccines. Annual vaccination has been and remains the single most important reason why most pet owners bring their pets for an annual or more often ¡°wellness visit.¡± Another reason for the reluctance to change current vaccination programs is many practitioners really don¡¯t understand the principles of vaccinal immunity. Clearly, the accumulated evidence indicates that vaccination protocols should no longer be considered as a ¡°one size fits all¡± program. Giving annual boosters when they are not necessary has the client paying for a service which is likely to be of little benefit to the pet¡¯s existing level of protection against these infectious diseases. It also increases the risk of adverse reactions from the repeated exposure to foreign substances. So, have veterinarians really embraced the national policies on vaccination guidelines from the American Animal Hospital Association, American Veterinary Medical Association and Academy of Feline Practitioners? Does the public trust veterinarians to be up-to-date on these issues or are they unsure? Do they believe veterinarians have a conflict of interest if they seek the income from annual booster vaccinations? Given current media attention to vaccination issues, the public is more aware and worried about vaccine safety. Some veterinarians today still tell their clients there is no scientific evidence linking vaccinations with adverse effects and serious illness. This is ignorance, and confuses an impressionable client. On the other hand, vaccine zealots abound with hysteria and misinformation. None of these polarized views is helpful. Further, veterinarians are still routinely vaccinating ill dogs and those with chronic diseases or prior adverse vaccine reactions. This is especially problematic for rabies boosters, as many colleagues believe they have no legal alternative, even though the product label states it's intended for healthy animals. For more information, see RabiesChallengeFund.org Alternatives to Current Vaccine Practices 1) measuring serum antibody titers; 2) avoidance of unnecessary vaccines or over vaccinating; 3) caution in vaccinating sick or febrile individuals; and 4) tailoring a specific minimal vaccination protocol for dogs of breeds or families known to be at increased risk for adverse reactions. 5) considerations include starting the vaccination series later, such as at nine or ten weeks of age when the immune system is better able to handle antigenic challenge; 6) alerting the caregiver to pay particular attention to the puppy¡¯s behavior and overall health after the second or subsequent boosters; and 7) avoiding revaccination of individuals already experiencing a significant adverse event. Littermates of affected puppies should be closely monitored after receiving additional vaccines in a puppy series, as they too are at higher risk. Some Frequently Asked Questions ¨C Some questions are part of the Guidelines for Vaccination of Dogs and Cats compiled by the Vaccine Guidelines Group (VGG) of the World Small Animal Veterinary Association (WSAVA) Q. Do dogs competing in agility or other events need more vaccines for protection than other pet dogs? A. No, although if the event location has an exposure risk for Leptospirosis or Lyme disease , annual vaccination for these diseases should be considered. Q. Is there risk of overvaccinating with vaccines not needed for a specific animal? A. Yes. Vaccines contain material designed to challenge the immune system of the pet, and so can cause adverse reactions. They should not be given needlessly, and should be tailered to the pet¡¯s individual needs. Q. Are the initial series of puppy core vaccines immunosuppressive? A. Yes. This period of immunosuppression from MLV canine distemper and hepatitis vaccines coincides with the time of vaccine-induced viremia, from days 3 to 10 after vaccination. Q. Can anesthetized patients be vaccinated? A. This is not preferred, because a hypersensitivity reaction with vomiting and aspiration could occur and anesthetic agents can be immunomodulating. Q. Is it safe to vaccinate pregnant pets? A. Absolutely not. Q. Should pets with immunosuppressive diseases such as cancer or autoimmune diseases, or adverse vaccine reactions/ hypersensitibvity receive booster vaccinations? A. No. Vaccination with MLV products should be avoided as the vaccine virus may cause disease; vaccination with killed products may aggravate the immune-mediated disease or be ineffective. For rabies boosters that are due, local authorities may accept titers instead or accept a letter from your veterinarian. Q. If an animal receives immunosuppressive therapy, how long afterwards can the pet safely be vaccinated? A. Wait at least 2 weeks. Q. Should vaccines be given more often than 2 weeks apart even if a different vaccine is being given? A. No. The safest and most effective interval is 3-4 weeks apart. Q. At what age should the last vaccine dose be given in the puppy series? A. The last dose of vaccine should be given between 14-16 weeks regardless of the number of doses given prior to this age. Rabies vaccine should preferably be given separately as late as possible under the law (e.g. 16-24 weeks). Q. Should the new canine influenza vaccine be given routinely? A. No. It is intended primarily for pounds and shelters and high density boarding facilities, as nose-to-nose contact and crowding promote viral transmission. Q. Can intranasal Bordetella vaccine be given parenterally (injected)? A. No. The vaccine can cause a severe local reaction and may even kill the pet. Q. Will a killed parenteral Bordetella vaccine given intranasally produce immunity? A. No. Q. Are homeopathic nosodes capable of immunizing pets? A. No. There is no scientific documentation that nosodes protect against infectious diseases of pets. The one parvovirus nosode trial conducted years ago did not protect against challenge. Q. Should disinfectant be used at the vaccine injection site? A. No. Disinfectants could inactivate a MLV product. Q. Can vaccines cause autoimmune diseases? A. Vaccines themselves do not cause these diseases, but they can trigger autoimmune responses followed by disease in genetically predisposed animals, as can any infection, drug, or chemical / toxic exposures etc. Q. Can a single vaccine dose provide any benefit to the dog? Will it benefit the canine population? A. Yes. One dose of a MLV canine core vaccine should provide long term immunity when given to animals at or after 16 weeks of age. Every puppy 16 weeks of age or older should receive at least one dose of the MLV core vaccines. We need to vaccinate more animals in the population with core vaccines to achieve herd immunity and thereby prevent epidemic outbreaks. Q. If an animal receives only the first dose of a vaccine that needs two doses to immunize, will it have immunity? A. No. A single dose of a two-dose vaccine like Leptospirosis vaccine will not provide immunity. The first dose is for priming the immune system. The second for boosting the immunity has to be given within 6 weeks; otherwise the series has to start over again. After those two doses, revaccination with a single dose can be done at any time. Q. Can maternally derived antibodies (MDA) also block immunity to killed vaccines and prevent active immunization with MLV vaccines? A.Yes. MDA can block certain killed vaccines, especially those that require two doses to immunize. With MLV vaccines, two doses are often recommended, particularly in young animals, to be sure one is given beyond the neutralizing period of MDA. Q. How long after vaccination does an animal develop immunity that will prevent severe disease when the core vaccines are used? A. This is dependent on the animal, the vaccine, and the disease. ¡¤ The fastest immunity is provided by canine distemper virus (CDV) vaccines -- MLV and recombinant canarypox virus vectored. The immune response starts within mins - hrs and provides protection within a day without interference from MDA. ¡¤ Immunity to canine parvovirus (CPV-2) develops after 3-5 days when an effective MLV vaccine is used. ¡¤ Canine adenovirus-2/hepatitis (CAV-2) MLV given parenterally provides immunity against CAV-1 in 5 to 7 days. Q. Can dogs be ¡°non-responders¡± and fail to develop an immune response to vaccines? A Yes. This is a genetic characteristic seen particularly in some breeds or dog families. Boosting them regularly will not produce measurable antibody. Some of these animals may be protected against disease by their cell-mediated and secretory immunity. Q. Are there parvovirus and distemper virus field mutants that are not adequately protected by current MLV vaccines? A. No. All the current CPV-2 and CDV vaccines provide protection from all known viral isolates, when tested experimentally as well as in the field. The current CPV-2 and CPV-2b vaccines provide both short and long term protection from challenge by the CPV-2c variant. Q. Are serum antibody titres useful in determining vaccine immunity? A. Yes. They are especially useful for CDV, CPV-2 and CAV-1 in the dog, FPV in the cat, and rabies virus in the cat and dog. Rabies titers, however, are often not acceptable to exempt individual animals from mandated rabies boosters in spite of medical justifcation. Serum antibody titers are of limited or no value for (many of) the other vaccines. 1 President, Hemopet, 938 Stanford Street, Santa Monica, CA 90403; 2 Chairman, Department of Pathobiological Sciences, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Wisconsin-Madison, Madison, WI 53706. * Excerpted from: AKC Health Foundation, St. Louis, MO, 2007; J Sm An Pract 48, 528¨C541, 2007; 5th IVVDC Conference , Madison, WI , 2009. Additional Literature ¡ñ Day MJ, Horzinek MC, Schultz RD. Guidelines for the vaccination of dogs and cats. J Sm An Pract, 48, 528-541 2007 ¡ñ Dodds WJ. Vaccination protocols for dogs predisposed to vaccine reactions. J Am An Hosp Assoc 38: 1-4, 2001. ¡ñ Dodds WJ. Vaccine issues revisited: what¡¯s really happening ? Proc Am Hol Vet Med Assoc, Tulsa, OK, 2007, pp 132-140. ¡ñ Paul MA (chair) et al. Report of the AAHA Canine Vaccine Task Force : 2006 AAHA Canine Vaccine Guidelines. J Am An Hosp Assoc 42:80-109, Mar-April 2006, 28 pp. aahanet.org ¡ñ Schultz R D Considerations in designing effective and safe vaccination programs for dogs. In: Carmichael LE (editor), Recent Advances in Canine Infectious Diseases. Intern Vet Inform Serv, 2000. ivis.org. ¡ñ Schultz RD. Duration of immunity for canine and feline vaccines: a review. Vet Microbiol 117:75-79, 2006. ¡°CORE¡± CANINE VACCINES * ¡¤ Distemper ¡¤ Adenovirus (Hepatitis)** ¡¤ Parvovirus ¡¤ Rabies _______________________________________ * vaccines that every dog and cat should have ** immunity provided by a CAV-2 vaccine CANINE VACCINE ADVERSE EVENTS * ¡¤ retrospective cohort study; 1.25 million dogs vaccinated at 360 veterinary hospitals ¡¤ 38 adverse events per 10,000 dogs vaccinated ¡¤ inversely related to dog weight ¡¤ vaccines prescribed on a 1-dose-fits-all basis, rather than by body weight. ¡¤ increased for dogs up to 2 yr of age, then declined ¡¤ greater for neutered versus sexually intact dogs ¡¤ increased as number of vaccines given together increased ¡¤ increased after the 3 rd or 4th vaccination ¡¤ genetic predisposition to adverse events documented _____________________________________________________________ * from Moore et al, JAVMA 227:1102¨C1108, 2005 VACCINE CONCLUSIONS FOR CANINES * Factors that increase risk of adverse events 3 days after vaccination: ¡¤ young adult age ¡¤ small-breed size ¡¤ neutering ¡¤ multiple vaccines given per visit These risks should be communicated to clients ______________________________________________

Johnny

can't post now!!!

Johnny

Thanks Johnny, I think I read this somewhere before, but it was a good refresher. Enzo's second titer came back last week. He has adequate antibodies for Distemper and Parvo! No immunization needed. So far he only had his 8 week shots (unfortunately combined) and then after the first titer a Parvo booster. We will do an other titer in a month and then in a year. I am still unsure if I will do rabies. Unless I cross the border it is not required here by law. I will also hold off with neutering, until Enzo is at least 18 months old. This was recommended by Dr. Dodds. I feel so bad, I totally over immunized Kahlu. But then i just wanted to protect him from as much as I could. I learned so much and am still learning. Last vet visit we also did a fecal check for parasites. I have never dewormed routinely, but the vet recommended it for a puppy. So I went with (the more expensive:-() lab test that came back negative. Again less chemicals that I have to put into that little body. Probably not a big deal, but why do it if it is not necessary? So speaks the paranoid puppy mum! Best wishes, Brigitte & the poodle boys

Brigitte BC Canada

Hi All, About 6 months after Kent passed away, Muki came jumping and bouncing into my life. He was somewhere between 6 and 12 months old, i think closer to 6months. Come mid June, it will be a year that he has been with me. I am concerned about vaccinations for him, and everytime i have to use something like frontline become pretty paranoid. I asked the vet about titers for him and they say he is too young, that usually only older and sick dogs are titered. With Muki, we know very little about his history except he was a puppy mill dog, was in a pet store at some point, and was dumped and living on the streets before arriving at animal control, and it looked like he had never had a hair cut (he is a mini schnauzer). He was microchipped by the breeder and the microchip company called the breeder who insisted he had had all of his puppy shots but that is all i have to go on. At animal control he had a series of shots plus rabies, and is due for the rabies shot again which i am very hesitant about. I am thinking of seeing if hemopet cant do titers and recommend what shots he should get - or not. Christine and Muki

Christine FL

Hello Christine, Of course puppies can have titers! We have done 2 already on our 4 months old Enzo. I think your vet is either miss informed (maybe you can educate him/her) or does not want to do it. I don't understand why they just want to immunize instead of titering, since they make more money on the titers. If Muki was immunized as a puppy and had a stay at the shelter, I would be surprised if he would not have adequate antibodies for distemper and Parvo. Most likely he was exposed to all kinds of viruses there. Rabies is of course a different story. Is it required by law in your state and would they accept a titer? I know the paranoia feeling just all too well. I never even dewormed my pup. We did a fecal test and that came back negative. So we did not have to deworm him. I refuse to do it routinely now. I think your plan to send the blood to hemopet for titers is excellent. I think it is a very inexpensive way to have peace of mind. maybe it is worth checking Muki's thyroid at the same time? Best wishes, Brigitte & the poodle boys

Brigitte BC Canada

Christine, Here is Dr. Dodds immunization schedule: http://www.weim.net/emberweims/Vaccine.html Best wishes, Brigitte

Brigitte BC Canada

HI Brigitte! Thank you so much for your reply. I also dont see an issue with titering even at his age especially because we all know it is not just elderly dogs that can have a reaction! I will take him in to his vet for his annual physical and have his blood drawn and sent to hemopet - i have wanted to get a complete 'baseline' for him anyway - something i would never have even thought of doing before Kent developed AIHA. Titers are not inexpensive, but i feel they are a good investment given the risks. I am definitely a bit on the paranoid side, and still find it a little strange to be living with a dog that is healthy, young, and vibrant. One of the first things i did with Muki is get him health insurance and though they dont cover this kind of thing, i hope if anything does happen, it will help. I suspect that if anything that Muki's time in the pound exposed him to all kinds of things and i would put money on him being 'over-vaccinated' as opposed to under. I also suspect he would have been given a three year rabies as opposed to one year but am checking on that. Rabies shots are required here but i believe they would accept a titer forthat too. Hope all is well, Best, Christine and Muki

Christine Florida

This vaccination situation is a nightmare with PRCA. After Shaunna's illness last year, we decided not to have her booster jab last month for fear of it kick-starting this whole horrid disease again...the upshot, kennels won't touch her without her vaccine certificate. We also live nervously of her contracting some disease... Shall seek advice on titers and will post the outcome...as it may be different to USA and Canada. Claire

Claire Cumbria

Claire, It should be no problem to get titers for rabies, parvo and distemper. Bordatella is , as far as I know not possible and that is the one most kennels require. Dr. Dodds does not recommend it. It is something like a flu shot, it might protect the dog depending on what strain they get hit with. would it be an option to get a house sitter when you go away? Or have somebody take her into their house. I have some friends and family that I can do exchanges. Just like we used to do with the kids! Good luck! and best wishes, Brigitte & the poodle boys

Brigitte BC Canada

There was discussion within the Leg Council and they are going to update the California Rabies Bill AB 2000 ...specifically paragraph 2 with regards to quarantining sick animals. They acknowledge the need for excemptions so that is great news!!! The newly amended bill isn't passed yet...it's got to be sent to the Senate Health Committee for final approval BUT things are looking better!!! Fingers & Paws are crossed!!!

Johnny

Claire, Do you think your vet would board your dog instead of taking her to a kennel? That's what we do now and it's wonderful. She actually takes our dog home with her at night or over the weekend if she has her. This way we don't have to worry about meeting the kennel requirements for vaccinations or risk the kennel giving her one because she isn't up to date as happened with our other dog who subsequently died from getting a vaccination he wasn't supposed to have. Christina

Christina Campbell River

This thread was discussed between 09/04/2010 and 27/05/2010

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